Q: You have been retired for more than 10 years now. Your primary ministry during that time has been with the Yaquis (Native Americans) in Arizona. What are the main aspects of your ministry and your impressions? In what ways has this ministry affected your life?

A: I’m serving as an associate pastor. There’s a freshness about it, even though I’m 83 years old, because I was never an associate pastor except for three months at St. Monica Parish in the Richmond District of San Francisco.

Now as an associate pastor, I don’t have to worry about finances or personnel. I can just do purely essential priestly work — Masses for the Indians, all the sacraments, funerals, days of recollection — all the things the associate pastor does. I enjoy it very much. The Yaquis have about seven churches, but all under one parish. Most of them are just lean-to churches, as they are very poor. I rotate around those seven churches and I work with two Trinitarian priests.

Once in a while I go out to the Papago Indian reservation — about two hours’ drive west of Tucson. Their real name is Tohono O’odham, which means “desert people” in the Papago language. They have a reservation that is 90 miles by 90 miles, and they have about 45 communities, most of which have a church. They are very small communities, so I help them out on occasion too. It’s a full life. I also say Mass daily for some sisters who live near where I have my R.V.

The Native Americans’ spirituality is very focused on nature. These people have been faithful Catholics since the days of the missionary journeys of a Jesuit priest, Father Eusebio Kino, who came in the late 1600s. He was in Sonora, Mexico, first and then came into what is now Arizona. They accepted the Christian faith. It wasn’t always that the natives did it with readiness.

Even though a lot of the conquistadores were rough on the Indians — by today’s standards they would seem to be very rough — Kino, I think, loved the people and the people loved him as did most of the missionaries. They have a definite Catholic spirit. The missionaries in those days imposed a European Catholicism on the Indians, which was probably a mistake, but they did it with all good intentions.

The Yaquis have rituals — deer dancing and other things — that are laced with Latin prayers; they are Roman Catholic to the core — about 85 percent Catholic among the population. And we’ve learned such things as rope dancing at the offertory, a Yaqui doing smoke blessings in the four directions instead of the penitential rite. Circles are big to them. They go to confession by writing their sins on slips of paper, which the priest reads silently. Then he gives them individual absolution. It’s amazing that, out of a church of 200 people, about 150 will go to confession. I’ve told priests who are not on an Indian reservation that they might consider doing this.

Q: It sounds like this ministry has had a great impact on your life.

A: For simplicity and getting to the essentials of the Gospel, I’ve learned a lot from the Yaquis — their down-to-earth sprit, their love of nature, their family-oriented qualities. Their native religion was profound. We should not have looked on them as savages.

Q: You’ve said before that the spiritual life is a lifelong journey for everyone. Can you elaborate on this?

A: I’m now finding this so true as I get into my 80s. If I could only shortcut the spiritual journey of others, especially the young, to say, “Please do this and your life will be so much happier and you won’t have regrets.” But I think we all have to learn it from experience. It is a journey...a hierarchy of spiritual values that often comes with age.

The breviary I used to find more of a burden — it’s called the Divine Office and “officium” means burden — and now I get something out of it reading it. I’ll say to myself, “I think this is beautiful.” Even at night when I pick up Robert Ludlum or John Grisham and try to read, if I still have some breviary to say, I think this is good. I’m still enjoying it. That’s how you grow spiritually and to know the meaning of prayer. The Mass means more to me now. I don’t know why it takes so long truly to appreciate what the Mass is. In many ways you realize that things like advancement and position are not important. What is important is keeping your friendships, your prayer life, and simplicity of life.

Q: Have you realized this more because you no longer have the responsibilities you had as bishop?

A: I think that’s probably true. I think I am just as busy, but there’s a pace of life now that allows you to think of these things. And you know you are coming more to the end of your life and you reflect more on what’s important. It is a spiritual journey — journey is a good word for it — because you are learning all the time.

There are times when we may wonder about the institutional church and question it, but all the alternatives don’t quite measure up, and one comes to realize that more.

Q: In an article you wrote for America magazine in April 2003, you said the institutional church today has some real challenges. For instance, many young people do not practice their faith or connect with the church in any way.

A: Many young people see the institutional church as irrelevant, and mostly around sex. It seems that all the problems within the church have something to do with gender or sex — whether it’s extramarital sex, homosexuality, divorce, the ordination of women and so on. Young people feel the pressures of the culture with the Internet and MTV and movies.

I don’t think we should be enemies of the culture and we shouldn’t be enemies of secularism or science — they are all part of God’s way of having created life. We can work with them to find where there is truth. Science needs religion as a moral guide, and we need science to find the physical facts.

With the young, we have a long way to go. If the young see Jesus Christ in us — as the saying goes, “If we build Jesus Christ, they will come.” Some youth may have turned off the institution, but it’s rare to find young people who don’t respect Jesus Christ. He seems to have remained a hero through it all, as do other people, like worldly celebrities, Mahatma Gandhi, Abraham Lincoln.

Q: Perhaps the institutional church needs to look at new ways to talk about Catholic beliefs about sexuality and other issues.

A: We have to go where their minds are. Often we’re preaching, but not to the reality of their lives. And it’s hard for us who are older to do that with the young, but we should do it to all people: with young adults, with the middle-aged, the elderly. Where are their needs? What are they worrying about? What are their lives tied up with? We’re talking about alienation in the family, problems in the workplace, getting enough to make ends meet.

We really have to reach them where they are — we can’t stay in the theoretical world. I don’t think many young people are against the institutional church, they just dismiss it. They aren’t angry at the church — it’s just not part of their world. We have to listen, listen and listen more. We may listen, but we may not really hear what people are saying.

Q: One of the key changes in the church in the past 40 years is the involvement of laypeople in so many roles. Would you agree?

A: It’s been a beautiful development. Participation of the laity and ecumenism are two of the most gratifying developments or results of Vatican II. And it sort of came about by necessity. I think God has allowed this shortage of clergy and religious for a reason. We can learn so much from laypeople. Some of us clergy perhaps thought we were smarter than we are. And whenever you get to that point, you’re going to be in trouble. It’s like an overconfident team. Once you think you’re the best, you run a risk.

The participation of the laity is crucial — not only in prominent positions in the church, but also just clergy knowing people, the things which they feel and know about life which we don’t. All of us now see that this is good for the church.

Q: Many who work for the church believe the church’s credibility has been greatly damaged with the public because of the clergy sex abuse scandal. What are your thoughts?

A: I think we have lost credibility. I wish this weren’t the case. I think we have projected the image of the church as only being clergy, hierarchy and religious. And the official leadership can be weak; we are all human.

If the people see the church as Jesus Christ — his person and his teaching — the people won’t lose credibility in that. They can lose credibility in those who are in leadership roles handling the crisis, but that shouldn’t make them depart from Jesus Christ. The credibility will come back, I believe, if it is for the right reasons.

Now the leadership is gradually realizing that the sexual molestation crisis is a matter that must be handled in a basically different way. Thank God, for some time now, the church has been addressing the problem in a more enlightened manner. I think there is hope that credibility can eventually be restored.

Q: During the past year, bishops, pastors and parishioners across the country have been wrestling with how one’s Catholic faith should shape one’s decisions in public life. Some bishops have differing views on church teaching about the proper disposition for reception of Communion, as well as about dialoguing with Catholic politicians whose public actions do not reflect church teaching. What are your thoughts on this discussion and how did you handle these topics when you were bishop in Sacramento?

A: The way I’ve approached it — spontaneously, whether it was right or not — was that I feel if a person — a politician or otherwise — says that they have a faith conviction about a moral issue, they should try to proclaim that if they honestly believe it. And if they are in a position such as a teacher or a public official they should do what they can to further that belief.

If they are against capital punishment, for example, they should stand up for that if they really believe it. If they believe abortion is wrong, even though they may be convinced that conditions are such that legislators, de facto, will not change the Supreme Court decision; nevertheless, they should say “I’m going to try to convince other lawmakers and my constituents that I firmly believe abortion is wrong,” and speak about it, not just dodge the issue.

When it comes to the matter of Communion, I remember in traditional theology, which we learned in the 1940s, that in most cases you should not deny Communion publicly to anyone who comes to the Communion rail, because you do not know the present state of their conscience...I don’t think I would deny the person coming to receive Communion, because that’s a matter of the state of the soul at that moment. The Eucharist is medicinal as well as nutritious. I suspect that the majority of bishops and priests would say the same thing. Communicants should examine their own conscience about whether they should approach the sacrament.

I think politicians have to educate others. You have some politicians who state their convictions privately, but you do not hear them say a word publicly that anything should be done about these critical issues. I don’t think the abortion issue is a matter of theology only. I think it’s a matter of logic. We are not trying to impose our faith on somebody else.

Q: What advice do you have for anyone becoming a bishop today?

A: First of all I would say, be transparent. Let the people see what you are and who you are. You certainly don’t want to be a bishop because of position or prestige, even though that’s a natural thing, but you’ll be very unhappy if you do, because position and prestige do not go a long way.

If you’re going to be a bishop, try to be a bishop for the right reasons — that is, to spread Christ’s word and really live it. Be good, have courage, be wise, be honest.

“Good, guts, wise and true.” I’ve carried these four four-letter words in my wallet for more than 30 years. They are in my wallet. They are not in my character. I suspect they are the pillars on which a bishop (or any person) can live an effective, moral life. It’s easy enough to say the four words, but to do them is another thing.

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